Emerging Church

Missional Church: Driscoll & Emerging

Mark_driscollA curious thing to post, but since I think it helps us come to a definition of the conversation/movement, I'll dive in.

I have thought for some time that some people are self-titled "emerging," others call themselves "emerging," and some are "emerging" though they don't care, or don't know it, or don't want to admit it.  Guys like Mark Driscoll and Tim Keller I put somewhere in that last category.

But Driscoll has been quoted as saying,

Let me agree that much of the church today is incredibly frustrating. Personally, when I hear so many young guys denying substitutionary atonement and the like after drinking from the emerging church toilet I turn green and my clothes don't fit. However, let me say though that we need to stay on mission.

Does this mean he is trying to distance himself from the emerging church and say he isn't a part of it, or that he is trying to pull the emerging church in his direction by distancing himself from parts of it (like notable authors), or something else?

Driscoll continues,

Sure, some pastors and churches are angry that I'm not putting my weight behind their mission but in the end...I won't stand before them for judgment and they won't stand before me, so I just let it go and keep pushing ahead until I see Jesus and he can separate sheep and goats and hand out rewards to the faithful. In the meantime, I refuse to get off my ladder but keep my sword close by and if a wolf shows up in my flock then I draw my sword but not until then.

While Driscoll seems to be doing much to not even use the word "emerging," it doesn't appear to me that he is abandoning the emerging church as worthless.  He is trying to be faithful in his context to lead his church and influence The Church in whatever way God gives him opportunity.  As he says...

What I'm finding is that if I stay on my mission eventually a platform gets big enough that you kind of just have permission to do your thing and others respect you even if they don't like you.

So it seems to me that Driscoll is "emerging" in the generic sense that he is missional to the postmodern (so to speak) culture, and in the sense that he still desires to influence (in some way) the conversation.  Whether he means to or not, there is no doubt he has influence in the emerging church conversation.  But he obviously isn't "emerging" in the sense that he doesn't care to push or carry the papers of a movement.

Mark, if someone points this out to you, I'd love you to set the record straight.

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Read Missional Church Part 1

Don't Abandon the Emerging Church

The Conservative Voice is speaking: Postmodern Antiquity: “Emerging Church” Claims Pre-Modern Roots

The final paragraph...

Fortunately, the movement has not yet taken definite shape. We can make it what we want it to be. True believers, I challenge you not to abandon the emerging church, but to seize the reigns of power and guide it toward God; and if we would do so, we must act now, while the anti-Christian liberals are still tolerant of our presence.

McLaren and Religions

Here's one of the worst things Brian McLaren has said according to many critics.  It's found in A Generous Orthodoxy.

I must add, though, that I don’t believe making disciples must equalmaking adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many (not all!) circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu or Jewish contexts.

This is a key passage for the Kentucky Baptist Convention who disinvited McLaren from speaking at their evangelism conference (also here).

This is a key passage for Stand to Reason founder and president Greg Koukl, who after quoting the above passage in a blog post then writes...

"Be forewarned. The Emergent Church is the most theologically corrosive view/movement/trend in a long time. The Seeker movement and the "Laughing Revival" of the last decade pale in comparison. And it’s consuming millions, especially young people. We’ll keep you posted."

This is a key passage for Al Mohler in his well-traveled review of aGO where he appears to say this quote brings into question McLaren's commitment to Christian mission in the world.

What does Brian McLaren really mean in this controversial quote?  Here is an excerpt from a recent interview with McLaren.

In an interview last week with Kentucky Baptists' newspaper, The Western Recorder, McLaren suggested the controversy was mainly a semantic one.

"I'm not saying I don't care if people are Christians or not," he said. "I'm saying I want people to be followers of Jesus, but to be a follower of Jesus in some situations may not require them to affiliate with the Christian religion.

"This is a very well-known reality in missiology," he added. "Many Southern Baptist missionaries are building disciples in communities of disciples ... that are meeting in homes or other places, but they are not affiliating with the Christian religion and disaffiliating with their own religion.

"This is especially the case in Muslim countries. They're affiliated as followers of Jesus but for a whole number of reasons, they are not saying, 'I'm an affiliate of the Christian religion.'"

Noting that "there were followers of Jesus before the word 'Christian' was invented," McLaren said, "They were first called Christians at Antioch - so I think we've got a biblical case for people being followers of Jesus without having to use that word.

"The issue," he insisted, "is that people confess Jesus as Lord. I'm interested in helping people actively be disciples of Jesus as Lord."

Read the whole article (HT: Joe Thorn email)

McLaren isn't saying we don't need mission, or that we should let new Christians syncretize.  He is talking about public association among believers in certain contexts.  He is talking about what he thinks is best to be a faithful witness in certain contexts.

As people convert they become disciples, but they may not publicly proclaim their conversion through joining a publicly recognized Christian church.  I used to be on track to go overseas as an SBC missionary.  During that time I heard one young, theologically strong SBC missionary speak who works with Muslims.  I also followed up and talked with him personally after his speech, and then through email later on.  His remarks about new converts is almost exactly the same as McLaren's.

I encourage critics of McLaren to respond to his clarification.  I think it's an important issue because it's such a contested quote.

Andrew Jones to Don Carson

Andrew Jones (aka TallSkinnyKiwi) has written an open blog post to Don Carson.  AJ felt he needed to bring some issues up before the publication of Carson's new book: Becoming Conversant with the Emerging Church (looks like the publisher has tweaked the book title since last check).  I think AJ poses some great questions and says some things that fly in the face of the critics.

To note...

1. Contrary to critics, important leaders in emergent disagree on theology and ecclesiology, among other things.  Wow, so McLaren doesn't speak for all of emergent?  Shocking.  When are critics going to get this?
2. AJ admits, some emerging churches suck.  Yes, it's true!  Critics can easily find an emerging church that is adolescent, unwise, and immature.  But it seems the traditional church hasn't given us a good model to compare emerging churches to.

Mother Churches

As the EC conversation continues to buzz more loudly in the ears of so many evangelicals, I think statements like this must be just as loud.

The unwieldy, old-fashioned church communities we've emerged from are like mothers--some supportive and helpful; others worn out, not well, depressed; all of them carrying a certain amount of history and baggage with them (because that's the price of growing up).  Of course we should grow up and do our generation's thing.  That's what parents want deep down.  But let's remember to be kind to the mother church--without her we wouldn't be here.

Maggi Dawn in Steve Taylor's The Out of Bounds Church?, page 56.

From Conversation to Movement

I wrote this as a comment earlier, but was encouraged by a close friend to make it a post. 

Everyone keeps throwing their hands in the air over emergent because we evangelicals are taught to look at something, shrink it down to it's essence, find the glaring problems, and then speak out against the problems. Emergent is a conversation that hasn't gelled yet, so it's near impossible to shrink it down, put it under the microscope, and write a paper criticizing it. It includes Catholics, universalists, Calvinists, and all sorts.

It's so hard for people to see that it doesn't have to be something concrete yet, and that's okay for now. 

My take (I could be wrong): it will gel at some point and become a movement. Then it will splinter into different pieces according to more traditional divisions. But the changes it will bring to traditional structures will be crucial, which is why I think the conversation is so important now. 

Why not let it be diverse for now and when the rubber hits the road let us go the ways we feel are most consistent with God's revelation?

Stand to Reason

For crying out loud.  I have so many things on my mind that I want to talk about.  I've tried to head toward other topics like music and book quotes on the Trinity, but the onslaught against the emerging church conversation never ends.  And as a good baptist I can't keep my mouth shut.  So I feel compelled, once again, to respond to an online article.  This time, one that links to me.

Stand to Reason, is an apologetics/discipleship ministry that intends to train Christians to defend the faith.  If you know more about StR and want to share more in the comments, feel free.  As for me, I've seen their site before but never felt compelled to spend much time there.  They may be great, who knows?

In a recent post on the StR blog, Brett Kunkle has decided to tackle the never-ending question, "Is Emergent a Conversation or Movement."  I'll draw out a few quotes and respond.

In quoting the Merriam-Webster dictionary, Mr. Kunkle writes,

It defines a conversation as an "oral exchange of sentiments, observations, opinions, or ideas" and a movement as "a series of organized activities working toward an objective" or as "an organized effort to promote or attain an end." From these straightforward definitions, does Emergent qualify as a conversation or movement?

Okay, easy enough.  Let's see what he comes up with.

It seems that Emergent has moved way beyond the conversation stage. They have their own books, their own websites, their own conferences, and their own churches. They no longer offer mere sentiments, observations, or opinions.

Lovers of oak trees have books and websites and conferences, but that doesn't mean there is a movement of oak tree lovers.  They just enjoy studying, talking about, and sharing information on oak trees.  Apologists have books and websites and conferences.  Does that mean they have a movement of apologists?  Or are they just continuing a conversation about the faith that needs defending?

These things constitute a conversation that includes observations and opinions.  But what about that pesky fourth thing?  We may have a movement if we see a fleet of churches who are organized and working together to reach objectives and goals.  Uh, where are they?  Where's the denominational headquarters?  Where's the emergent pope or recognized president?  Where's the website that all emergents go to for directions because we all belong to a movement? 

There is no movement, at least not yet.

And having churches that consider themselves emergent or emerging doesn't mean there is a movement.  It means they agree on a word that helps to identify them, and they don't even agree on that.  And one "emerging church" can be very different from another, and yet another.  That makes for a pretty poor organized movement.

These things clearly show the emerging church is a conversation, and only a conversation so far.  But Kunkle continues.

Emergent is working toward a particular objective: to reform the Church. Now, there is nothing wrong with this objective in and of itself. We would certainly want to think carefully about the reforms being proposed by Emergent, but that is a topic for another day. My inquiry here has to do with Emergent’s insistence on being called a conversation rather than a movement.

It should be the work of every church to work for reformation: semper reformanda.  Just because there's a loose knit web of people who have a lot in common because they are talking about some specific reformational ideas to help us reach emerging generations doesn't mean there is a movement. 

And Kunkle ignores the fact that some who consider themselves emerging don't want anything to do with the church as they know it.  They want to start their own churches.  But a number of others want reform.  And some others are skeptical of getting too organized.  This varied understanding of church is the pulse of a conversation, not a movement that has an objective.

The answer may lie in Emergent’s seemingly ultra-defensive posture...when it comes under criticism. It seems to me that this may be a strategy, albeit an unconscious one, to get out from under ANY criticism. A movement with a clear objective ought to be critically examined so if Emergent can successfully label itself a "conversation" then they can deflect any attempt at examination or critique.

Or it could be that it really IS a conversation.  Getting into motive (conscious or not) puts a writer into a highly flammable situation.  I agree, if it's clearly a movement and they try to deflect criticism, there's something very wrong.  But I already showed there's no evidence of a real movement. 

And I would love to see examples of where those in the conversation are unwilling to accept criticism.  I have seen Brian McLaren (for example ) accept criticism like I haven't seen an evangelical do so.  Here is an example.  There is a new blog with a (sometimes too harsh) critique of Emergent.  Those sympathetic with emergent who comment on that site aren't saying they shouldn't be critiqued.  There is dialogue and critique of both sides.  I think the claim that emergent wants to avoid critique is imaginary.  Theories of evasion and unconscious strategy are fun and all, but unproven.

They have offered a clear critique of the current Church, they draw clear conclusions, and they offer a particular direction which they believe the Church ought to move in. For evidence of this, simply pick up any book by a recognized leader of Emergent.

Really?  I've picked some up and read them.  They are thin on clear conclusions and particular directions, but thick on critique and possible suggestions.  They point out possibilities and dreams of the church.  Believe me, I really wish they were clearer on direction and solutions!

So let us set aside any debate over whether Emergent is a conversation or movement and move on to the more important task of carefully and thoughtfully examining Emergent’s views on and proposals for the Church.

You can approach the emerging church conversation any way you like.  But I suggest it's always better to try to understand it before you speak about it.  And Kunkle, like too many evangelicals, doesn't understand much about the emerging church yet.   Maybe this will open up dialogue that will prove fruitful.

Emerging Church Threat to the Gospel

When are Southern Baptist leaders going to do more than shout from afar at those involved in the emerging church conversation? 

Baptist Press has once again added to the misinformation on the emerging church in a March 23rd article by David Roach: "Leaders Call 'Emerging Church Movement' a Threat to Gospel."  The article includes quotes from Don Carson, a series of quotes from Al Mohler's critique of Brian McLaren's book, A Generous Orthodoxy, and quotes from Brian McLaren. 

Some of us are trying to enhance the conversation about the emerging church "movement" with thoughtfulness.  But BP (to this point) and other thinkers are trying to fill the SBC with anti-emerging noise and knee-jerk reactions as quickly as they can.  It feels like propaganda.  With every article like this published for the masses, the hope for fruitful dialogue fades.  Misinformation will need to be fixed, stereotypes will have to be dropped, and straw men will need to be put back in the corn field where they belong.

For the record, I have emailed an SBC pastor (a regular contributor to BP) about one of his articles that is heavy on judgment and without grace to some in our culture (which emerging folks are fed up with).  No response.  I have emailed and informed Russ Moore of my response to his article on the emerging church and Brian McLaren.  I know he received it, but no response. 

I'm doing all I know to do to encourage emerging SBC leaders like me to work patiently in the convention to see biblical change.  But SBC leaders are (unintentionally?) working hard to push away many in emerging generations rather than talk about the truth together. 

Listen, I don't agree with everything in the emergent conversation, or by McLaren.  But much of the emergent critique of the evangelical church is showing brilliance every time an article like this one from BP is published. 

This is a public call to Baptist Press and Southern Baptists, coming from a young Southern Baptist pastor, to talk about the emerging church with some young SBC leaders.  We certainly need to hear you, but you also need to hear us.  I think a little dialogue will show that it's actually possible to engage in the emerging church conversation and be a committed Southern Baptist at the same time.

Mark Driscoll Interview

Thanks for the head's up from cawleyblog on this Christian radio show interview of Mark Driscoll.  Mark is pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle and if you haven't read or heard about him, this will give you a good idea what's this guy's about.  Really great stuff.  They talked about how he has changed the way the Seattle newspaper talks about religion, popular TV preachers, and a variety of other issues.

Best line, concerning the choice of coach for the Seattle Seahawks: "The whole thing's a goat rodeo, isn't it."

Second best line, on Mark's favorite TV show "24" (my personal favorite as well): "Give me a show where somebody dies...I'm watching that one."

Making Sense of Emergent

Andrew Jones (TallSkinnyKiwi) is spending a week ironing out some things on the emerging church.  In his prelim post describing his goals, he writes...

I am kicking off a one week tour of the emerging church, at least . .how I see the emerging church and how I would describe it to OLDER people who may not understand it. Every day, over the next week, I hope to introduce 10 characteristics of the emerging church, tackle the hairy subjects of definition (our failed attempts) and criticisms of the emerging church, and also mention some of the opportunities and resources available to and out of the emerging church.

This sounds like it should be very helpful.  I think both supporters and critics of emergent should listen in, as well as anyone else who is trying to figure out emergent with the rest of us.  His first post EmergAnt 1: An Emergent Vocabulary is now up.

The Emergent Fad?

Russell Moore is the Dean of Theology and Senior Vice President for Academic Administration at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY.  He also serves as executive director of The Henry Institute which is described as "a think-tank devoted to equipping churches and church leaders to engage the culture from a biblical worldview perspective."

I know Russ from back in the days when he was doing his PhD work and working as an intern for Al Mohler, the President of Southern. We lived in the same apartment complex and he and his wife brought us to their church one Sunday to visit, followed by a lunch at Wendy's.  I consider him a friend and smarter than I'll ever be. 

In his March 11th commentary he takes on the emergent movement in an article titled, "Bugs Bunny Meets Brian McLaren: Christianity, Pop Culture, and the Quest for Hip."  I want to respond to some of his thoughts there. 

Moore makes some good observations on evangelicalism.

American evangelicalism long ago sold out to cultural accommodation to the consumerist, therapeutic ethos of contemporary American society. Now that side of evangelicalism is as “lame” in the eyes of the culture as a Looney Tunes cartoon from the 1960s.

He also does what so few critics of the "emergent movement" do.  He qualifies his comments instead of lumping everyone together in a movement that is anything but monolithic. 

There is more than one expression of the “emergent” phenomenon—and not all of it is bad. The call to community and authenticity in life together are as old as the New Testament. Some of the worship practices that are emerging from the emergent church are an improvement on the canned infotainment of standard evangelical fare.

I agree with him to this point.  But Moore then makes some connections that I think go too far.

And so, evangelicalism “reinvents” itself—in the image of a brooding, angst-ridden twenty-something coffeehouse culture.

Huh?  Is he saying that emergents are simply giving evangelicalism a face-lift?  It seems that's the case as he says...

But within the McLaren wing of the “emergent” church, the simultaneous rejection of propositional truth and Christocentric revelation—coupled with a suspicion of authority in general—result in a Christianity that just happens to coincide with the cynical milieu of reality television, NPR-style religious pluralism, and the postmodern fads of the local university English department.

That may be hip, but it certainly isn’t counter-cultural.

Okay, I have issues with they way truth is understood and explained as well as Moore.  But if he wants to point the finger at the "McLaren wing" of the emergent movement, why not offer up a quote or two from McLaren to make his point?

The thing it, that isn't Moore's real point.  He is really concerned that the emergent movement is about being "hip" like other cultural fads.  He even calls the emergent movement a "fad."  I agree with Moore that hipness should not be the goal, but I think most emergents would agree with him too.  Yet Moore continues to paint this picture...

And if American Christianity seeks to move beyond being “hip” to real relevance, we must recognize that relevance comes with something more than black turtlenecks and goatees, just as it needed more than rhinestone leisure suits in generations past. Real relevance comes with a message that is so alien and so arresting that even the pagan culture mavens stop to ask, “What does this babbler wish to say?” (Acts 17:18)

Again, most emergents wouldn't disagree with being "alien and arresting" in a biblical sense.  But I think the only group that might resemble what Moore is talking about are seeker-sensitive, church growth evangelicals who have moved on from imitating Hybels and Warren to imitating McLaren and Driscoll. 

I've even heard some former emergent pastors lament over joining the emergent movement, and the way they characterize their departure is by saying they have put away the candles.  Please, these guys aren't emergent-minded.  They are looking for church growth by adopting a style that will "work" with younger generations.  But all movements and denominations have their followers who put on the right externals in order to be "relevant," but in doing so only prove that they don't know what relevance is.

While I have great respect for Russ Moore and Al Mohler and others who think the emergent movement is heading the wrong way, I just don't believe they have understood it.  There are plenty in the conversation who have their issues, no doubt, but the same goes for evangelicalism and Southern Baptists (I'm in both of these camps too).  And to characterize a big part of the movement as seekers of hip more than seekers of Christ is misleading at best. 

For evangelicals to caricature emergents as goatee wearing hipsters is as silly as emergents caricaturing evangelical baptists as fat, suit-wearing, non-dancing white-guys.  Neither is truly and fully accurate.  And that means, unfortunately, that Moore's article adds nothing to the evangelical-emergent conversation but greater division based on clever cartoon comparisons instead of the facts.

Emergent and the Conversation

The Emergent conversation is at a critical point, in my opinion.  You can gather some of my personal thoughts about the conversation in previous posts.  I would categorize my own position as emergent-minded and thoughtfully sympathetic.  That said, I don't want this post to be about me. 

I want to turn a little bit of the focus to the extra-emergent conversation, the conversation about the conversation between evangelicals and emergent types. 

I think right now is the time when a lot of evangelicals are getting scared.  I don't mean that as a put down.  They see a movement coming and react in a way consistent with an evangelical mindset.  Some have characterized the emergent movement as problematic.  Others as heretical.  Most claim it is a sellout to postmodernism. 

I think most who consider themselves in the emergent conversation will say they are trying to get back to the historic Christian faith.  Postmodernism has provided a wonderful opportunity to reclaim and redeem in Christ that which the Church has allowed modernism to steal away.

I also know there are more extreme positions among evangelicals and emergent types.  I don't want to discount that.  But I think that emergent is more of a conversation than a movement and evangelicals are more of a movement than a conversation.  And that matters when we try to critique and judge and pigeonhole people and issues and movements.

So to try encourage more conversation between evangelicals and emergent types (of which I consider myself both), I want to offer some links to the extra-emergent conversation.  Some of you will have already read or listened to these resources.  Others of you will be getting some new things to think about.  Even others will be introduced to the conversation for the first time. 

I hope that some of you who have access to resources not mentioned here will comment and add to the list. 

R. Albert Mohler weblog
-Truth-Telling is Stranger Than it Used to Be Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
-"A Generous Orthodoxy" - Is It Orthodox?

Doug Wilson weblog
-Theology to Make the Teeth Ache
-Postmodernism category blog posts

Brian McLaren website - many interactions with the conversation throughout including...
-A Brotherly Critique and Response
-Dialogue section   
-Annotation of "The Emergent Mystique" article by Christianity Today (found below)
-Open Letter to Chuck Colson on Colson's Christianity Today article "The Postmodern Crackup"
-Various other articles

White Horse Inn
-Emergent Church Movement, Part 1 - free streaming currently available   
-Interview with three young members of an Emergent Church congregation
-Interview with Shane Rosenthal, producer of WHI, on emergent experiences


Christianity Today - emergent conversation resources
-The Emergent Mystique - Christianity Today article

Books
-Becoming Conversant With Emergent by D.A. Carson - due out in April 2005
-The Church in Emerging Culture - Five Perspectives: Leonard Sweet, Andy Crouch, Brian McLaren, Erwin McManus, Michael Horton

You can also Google search various issues, names, or words like "emergent" or "emerging church" and you will find other articles, links, interviews, and a billion blogs and posts that add to the conversation.  Helpful emergent blogs found at Planet Emergent.

I hope these links are helpful.  I don't put them here because I agree with everything said, but because I value the conversation.  Please feel free to add something you find helpful.